Fiction: Gwenda Bond

[00:00:09] Welcome to Ten Thousand. I'm your host Ben Scofield, and this is a podcast about expertise.

[00:00:13] It isn't about experts though, it's about the journey. My goal with Ten Thousand is to talk to

[00:00:18] people at all stages, from absolute novices to world-class performers, to find out how they

[00:00:21] think about what they do and what it means to excel, and especially how what they think changes

[00:00:24] as they get more experience. With that said, let's get into it. I read a lot of fiction,

[00:00:34] but sadly it takes people a really long time to write a book, which means I'm often taking chances

[00:00:39] on authors I haven't seen before, and usually that works out great. But it also means that

[00:00:43] when I see an author whose work I really enjoy branching out into a new genre or a new medium,

[00:00:47] I get really, really excited. This week I'm joined by just such an author. Gwenda Bond has published,

[00:00:52] starting out mostly in young adult fantasy with series like the Cirque American trilogy,

[00:00:57] but then moved into middle grade fiction for a bit, and then more recently romantic comedies like

[00:01:02] the Match Made in Hell duology and Mr. and Mrs. Witch, licensed properties with the Lois Lane

[00:01:07] trilogy and the first novel written in the Stranger Things world, scripted podcasts,

[00:01:12] audiobook originals, and most recently the frame-up, about which I should say I love a good magical

[00:01:17] heist. So definitely check that out if you also love a good magical heist. So Gwenda,

[00:01:21] welcome to 10,000. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah. So I'm really excited to talk about the breadth

[00:01:29] of your experience and the more unusual ways in which you've worked. But before we get to that,

[00:01:33] I always start with, what does good mean in the context of writing fiction?

[00:01:38] Oh, well, that's what an easy question. To me, good, I mean, when you're telling a story,

[00:01:44] you're trying to connect with a reader. But the thing that's tricky is that doesn't mean you're

[00:01:50] going to connect with every reader, no matter how good the story is. So to me, the way that I gauge

[00:01:55] whether I've done my job is if one reader seems to have read the book that I wanted to write,

[00:02:01] I'm like, okay, nailed it. And hopefully that there are more of them. You know, it's just like

[00:02:08] you or I walk into a bookstore and we know there's lots of good books that we won't particularly connect

[00:02:13] with. And so I think it's figuring out like, who are the readers that you would speak to?

[00:02:18] And then trying to tell a story in a way that they will respond to.

[00:02:22] Okay. So then I guess the next question is, how? So you've worked in different genres and

[00:02:29] different media, like I mentioned.

[00:02:30] Yeah, I believe they call that a deletone. Like, follow my whims wherever they take me.

[00:02:36] Yeah. So do you find that that sort of metric of success is the same across all of those? Or are

[00:02:44] there sort of unique aspects for working in a primarily audio medium versus the written word?

[00:02:49] There are definitely differences between, to me, that metric, the metric of whether I've done my

[00:02:56] job or not, like the one reader who gets it is like a sanity saving device. I think it was Seth

[00:03:03] Godin I heard on a podcast once talking about how there are the business metrics for success,

[00:03:10] especially in publishing. I think a lot of people get hung up on those, which are very much not

[00:03:15] really in the author's control. And to me, it's really important. This was something I borrowed

[00:03:21] from him. Like he was talking about how he decided to redefine what success for each of his books was

[00:03:27] for him to sort of divorce it from those parts that were more frustrating sometimes. So that to me is,

[00:03:34] they're two separate things. Like I can recognize a book did well commercially or a project didn't

[00:03:40] perform as well as I wanted and still feel like it was an artistic success. And we did what we wanted

[00:03:46] to do. I think the big difference for me is whether it's a collaborative project or not.

[00:03:50] And so for collaborative projects and individual projects, I think the metrics change a little bit

[00:03:57] just because one, to me, a collaborative project is really about responsibility of the team

[00:04:04] and working toward that story together. And it's almost like a breath of fresh air because you get

[00:04:11] to work with the energy of other people in a way that you don't when you're in your garret until you come

[00:04:17] out and maybe your editor is there waiting, like, please give me a book and I'll help you fix it.

[00:04:23] Nice. Yeah. So most of the other authors I've talked to for the series are writing on their own.

[00:04:30] And I think everyone, almost everyone has talked about the importance of their writing groups and

[00:04:36] the feedback they get. But one of the other interviews was with Andrea Phillips, who I know

[00:04:41] you worked with. Yeah. I love her. Yeah. What a genius she is. She's amazing. But so you work together

[00:04:50] at Cereal Box now, Real Media, in a much different way of working. So you said that the measure of

[00:04:57] success working on your own was the story you wanted to tell connected with the reader. So

[00:05:03] where does the story you're trying to tell with that sort of collaboration come from?

[00:05:08] Well, that was a particularly interesting project that was remade. And I jumped in to replace someone

[00:05:15] who had to leave. So I wasn't there for the initial genesis of the story. I kind of came in late.

[00:05:22] But I have to say, it was a great group to come into. And they really did let me jump in and change

[00:05:28] some things, including some core romantic relationships that had been in the works the

[00:05:34] whole time. And they're like, no, that's interesting that you're seeing this chemistry between these

[00:05:38] two. Let's go down that path. One thing I will say, every time you do a project with a group,

[00:05:46] you learn, everyone's good at different things. And every time I've been lucky enough to work

[00:05:52] collaboratively like that, I've learned something. And for that one, to me, it was kind of learning

[00:05:56] how to write short stories, which is not my natural bed. And so each episode is basically the length of

[00:06:01] a short story. And I also really enjoyed the writer's room process that we did for those. And we did the

[00:06:07] same thing for Dead Air, like the story summit where everyone comes together and then you're making

[00:06:13] decisions and interrogating and shaping the story together as you go. And then of course, everyone

[00:06:18] breaks off with their little pieces. And that's kind of where you've got time to make more idiosyncratic

[00:06:24] choices. And of course, claiming the episode. So I definitely feel like for those, to me, it's like,

[00:06:31] are we all excited about what we're producing? Like in a way, it's like, is everyone learning from each

[00:06:38] other and getting something out of it and feeling like we're expanding what we can do together. And I

[00:06:45] mean, Dead Air was the same way. Like, I feel incredibly lucky. That was the one I created for

[00:06:50] Cereal Box and then Realm. And I'm not sure. I wish we had managed to get it packaged the way we wrote

[00:06:57] it, which is that we did the mystery behind the story. And we did the podcast episodes that the person's

[00:07:04] actually producing. And we did a lot of tricky misdirects and hints between the two. But for

[00:07:11] whatever reason, they never really got packaged like we envisioned it. But I learned so much getting

[00:07:18] to work with Rachel Cain, Roxanne Conrad, who then passed away a couple years after that, and Carrie

[00:07:24] Ryan, who is just like a plot master. And so I think those are the things that I'm thinking of when I go into

[00:07:32] a collaboration is also like, how is this going to improve and expand what I can do? And can I bring

[00:07:39] anything to it? Because if I can't bring something to it, I would say no. And it's the same for IP.

[00:07:44] Like if I'm offered an IP and I don't feel that I immediately have a way to understand the essence of

[00:07:52] that world, that property, and that I can bring something to it while also meeting the existing

[00:08:00] demands, then I'm like, this isn't for me. Yeah. So, so with licensed work in general,

[00:08:06] you have a story you want to tell. And then the brand has things that they want out of it.

[00:08:12] How does that combine to be successful versus how can it go wrong?

[00:08:16] So I've been very lucky in that I have had almost universally positive experiences with this,

[00:08:22] with one exception. But Warner Brothers, I have had a good experience with on the Lois Lane side.

[00:08:28] Like I was given a ton of freedom and really, honestly, like very, very much they were supportive

[00:08:36] of the vision that I had. And really, honestly, Lois's backstory is so unfleshed out that I had a

[00:08:45] lot of freedom there. I mean, they were super worried until the first draft came in and there

[00:08:50] were some like big things that I changed. And I still, I'm always joke that I was the person they

[00:08:55] could afford. Because honestly, I do feel like that project was the project I've been training for my

[00:09:00] whole life, how it fell in my lap the way it did when I was barely established. I'll never understand,

[00:09:05] but I'm grateful for it. As I was a journalism major in college, my day job for many years was

[00:09:11] working with reporters. But I always loved Superman and Lois Lane. Like I'm printing on that character

[00:09:17] early on. And I'm like, I really developed that book, like the idea, the core idea in the universe

[00:09:24] for those books in about a week. And that's the same for Stranger Things. Like I feel like if I'm

[00:09:29] approached about a property and I can immediately start making choices that feel right and feel right in

[00:09:39] terms of, I think where IP goes wrong is you have to understand what the essence of the thing that makes

[00:09:48] people love it is. And I feel like Superman seems to be really hard for a lot of people to understand.

[00:09:55] Like they want to be like, but what if Superman was this? And it's like, but he's not. That's the point.

[00:10:01] Um, you know, and so I feel like if you can define like the two or three things that make the story

[00:10:08] universe without which it's not going to feel like a Superman story. And for me, those are like

[00:10:13] ensemble cast commitment to truth and science fiction. I mean, cause he's an alien. And I feel

[00:10:21] like those things, then you jump off from there. And, but it's like, give Lois her own Scooby gang,

[00:10:27] stranger things, same thing. Although, you know, in that case, of course the brand,

[00:10:31] has a very firm idea of what the brand is. But in that case, again, basically they were like,

[00:10:36] we want someone to tell the story of Eleven's mother. We want it to be set in 1969. We want

[00:10:43] it to be about the experiment. Other than that, pitch us. You can have the freedom to decide who

[00:10:48] Eleven's dad is. You just got to get him off the, off the stage by the end of the book somehow.

[00:10:54] I mean, honestly, so in both those cases, I feel like I've had the best case scenario where

[00:10:59] they actually were interested in hiring me to tell a story in that world. And they let me do it,

[00:11:06] which is not always the case. And for the Lois Lane books, I remember we sent, I had two editors,

[00:11:12] an editor at Capstone and then an editor at Warner Brothers. And I remember my editor and I were like,

[00:11:17] well, we hope that they love this book for the Lois Lane book. Cause it was really the first time DC

[00:11:22] had ever done something quite like this with this character. And they were nervous. It was really

[00:11:27] one of the first novels and the editor sent back his stuff in a hard copy. And he drew a heart on the

[00:11:34] front of the manuscript. And the, and the only global note was Superman could not do anything illegal.

[00:11:43] But like, like, but like there were like, like he drew hearts like all throughout the margins.

[00:11:48] We're like, okay, I think we did. I think we did it. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if, I mean,

[00:11:55] the people who work on these shows are often, and these properties, they love the properties, right?

[00:11:59] Exactly. Right.

[00:12:00] So, so when you're able to do justice to the characters, then they're going to be happy.

[00:12:06] Right.

[00:12:07] So, so clearly there are some stories or some elements of stories you can't tell there,

[00:12:13] right? Right.

[00:12:13] Was that constraint, do you think helpful or did it make it harder?

[00:12:18] I think constraints are always helpful. And I should say, by the way, the one negative

[00:12:22] experience with IP that I had, uh, just to make it clear, cause somebody will be like,

[00:12:27] is it wild cards? No wild cards is great. George R. Martin's a fabulous editor.

[00:12:31] It was actually another announced and then canceled immediately project that people still ask me

[00:12:37] about. It was going to be a cereal box flash show and it was all written. And there was a

[00:12:44] competing project that no one knew about inside Warner Brothers. And so they're like, oh, we

[00:12:50] didn't know that this was happening. So we got to cancel this.

[00:12:53] But to your point, I think constraints to me, um, are one of the most useful things writers

[00:12:59] can have. And I definitely have learned things like I was never an outliner, really a planner

[00:13:06] before doing IP because you have to be, um, not only because they want you to turn in a detailed

[00:13:14] outline, but because it protects you. If you can convey what they can expect to get out of

[00:13:20] you, I've often found that, and this is true of original work too, where writers get into trouble

[00:13:26] is when they deviate from what the publisher expects. And that can be a good thing. It can

[00:13:32] be a necessary thing. And it happens in original work too. If you sell on proposal and then the book

[00:13:38] turns out to be something completely different, it can lead to some nightmare scenarios. And I feel

[00:13:42] like with IP, you're in an even worse position if that happens because they can just be like,

[00:13:48] we hired you to do this and you did this. So now you fix it because you don't have the final say.

[00:13:55] Um, I think it's very important that you, when you make choices that you're not just doing

[00:14:01] something to make it different, but actually improving upon it. And so if a choice that I'm

[00:14:07] making up front makes me excited to go further down a path, those are the choices I'm going to make.

[00:14:12] And I want as many constraints as possible. Now I do like melding a bunch of genres to make it

[00:14:17] interesting and difficult. Like all of my projects are, I guess what you'd call cross genre

[00:14:21] because I read and consume stories across genres and that's just the way my brain works,

[00:14:26] but it can make things tricky like writing a magic heist book where the heist has to work both with

[00:14:32] the rules of the magic side of the world and with our, our world. Um, but it felt like it would be

[00:14:37] cheating to get rid of either one.

[00:14:39] Yeah. A couple of the conversations I've had have, uh, I've talked to folks about tropes

[00:14:45] and sort of how far you can go. So you were talking about, you can't deviate from the expectations of

[00:14:52] the publisher, but also, I mean, to your original definition of good and success is you, to some

[00:14:57] extent, you can't deviate too much from the expectations of the audience. Right. Um, uh, so, uh, I,

[00:15:04] I got on a romance kick, uh, a few years ago and, uh, a lot of romance is extremely formulaic.

[00:15:10] And I mean, the, I think some people would argue that the defining feature of the romance is the

[00:15:14] happily ever after at the end. So I have to stick to these specific trips. I'm running in enemies to

[00:15:19] lovers or whatever it happens to be. Um, so, so how do you balance when to follow the constraints

[00:15:27] or where these are more soft constraints, right? So when to follow them or subvert them or,

[00:15:33] or do something completely different? Um, for me, I'm always looking for like, let's take Mr.

[00:15:41] and Mrs. Witch as an example, because most people are familiar with the movie, Mr. and Mrs. Smith.

[00:15:45] And this was literally one of those random things where I was watching Mr. and Mrs. Smith during the

[00:15:49] pandemic. And I was like, what if it was a witch and a witch hunter and like almost fully formed

[00:15:54] book idea? It's like, well, this would be too fun not to write. Um, and so what I want to do then

[00:16:01] is bring my own perspective and unique twist to the lore and the world of the book and to the

[00:16:14] characters. You know, I want to use these things that everyone finds enjoyable, but I want to have

[00:16:21] a woman who people on Instagram think just as wearing a snake wig, who is actually a necromancer with,

[00:16:29] with snakes for hair and you know, who feeds them sushi after a hard day at work, which you can't

[00:16:36] actually feed them nigiri. It has to be sashimi. I did the research snakes, no rice for snakes,

[00:16:43] but that kind of world building that, uh, really I'm sure everyone's glad I'm out here doing, but, um,

[00:16:51] but like for me, it's, it's, it's interesting. And also I think it depends on what you're,

[00:16:55] where you're writing. And like right now I'm working on the first in a trilogy of historical

[00:17:01] romances that are fantasy Regencies. So I want to keep the parts of the Regencies that I love,

[00:17:08] but also I've made this huge fantasy world. Um, and, and it just gets more and more detailed as I go on,

[00:17:16] but still using some of those things because I know as a reader that this is what gives me pleasure

[00:17:22] in that type of story. And so I think part of it is just connecting with why are you telling this

[00:17:28] story? And if you, if you honor the parts you love and subvert the parts that drive you crazy,

[00:17:33] it's like a good rule of thumb. Um, it's probably going to resonate with other people,

[00:17:39] but especially for romance. I mean, romance writers are masters of emotional tension.

[00:17:46] The fact is that yes, they can be formulaic and they do all have a happy ever after,

[00:17:51] but also the best of them. And I would argue most of them, this is why it's such a popular genre,

[00:17:57] page turners that in and of itself tells you like the level of craft is very high.

[00:18:03] You know, a lot of books that I pick up, I'm not compelled to keep turning the pages and I put

[00:18:08] them down. Right. And I'm sure that's true for all of us. Um, and it's not that I'm saying that

[00:18:13] slow books are bad, but my favorite kinds of books are what I call meaning of life thrillers.

[00:18:18] And I think a lot of romances are actually meaning of life thrillers, um, in the sense that it's a,

[00:18:24] someone said not me and I can't remember who it is, but that every romance is an argument about love.

[00:18:30] And so I think there's a real intellectual component to what is this specific book saying?

[00:18:36] What is the romance between these two characters getting at on a deeper level?

[00:18:41] Hmm. Interesting. So I think there are, there are lots of ways that a story can connect with

[00:18:50] an audience. Um, and I think that that page turner versus slower book is that they almost feel distinct.

[00:18:58] Like there are at least two different ways that books can be really good. Um, I can read like R.F.

[00:19:04] Kwong's Babble. Absolutely. Great example. It's an amazing book, but it is dense.

[00:19:10] And you can't just turn pages through it. And that's one of the reasons, right. And that's part

[00:19:15] of the pleasure. Yeah. I think that's the thing is like slow books that realize the pleasure that

[00:19:20] readers want to revel in when they're reading a book like that. And there again, comes up to that

[00:19:26] thing of what's good is very much in the, of the beholder because, you know, I'm not a reader who

[00:19:31] necessarily wants to read the three page description of what's on the table at a feast.

[00:19:37] But certainly there are many people who've made long careers because people love those.

[00:19:44] Yeah. Or, or, uh, Ian Fleming going into the exact brands of the guns and the cars and all that.

[00:19:51] Right. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:19:53] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, so if the measure of good is connecting with the reader, then, uh, to some

[00:20:00] extent the feedback, right. I would say the right reader, like the reader that is the reader who's

[00:20:05] going to, it's connecting with the reader who is open to the story you want to tell.

[00:20:11] Okay. Um, so the feedback loop on that is pretty long. Yeah. So I I'm sitting in my office writing,

[00:20:17] uh, maybe I'm writing with other people if I'm very lucky. Um, we go through the publishing cycle

[00:20:22] and a year and a half later, it gets in the hands of a reader and it really connects or it doesn't.

[00:20:25] So how, how do you shorten that feedback cycle so you can get better at creating that story?

[00:20:31] Oh, that's a great question. I do think writing groups can be very useful. I've really only used

[00:20:38] mine when I'm stuck. I think to a certain extent you also develop your own, I guess gut is the,

[00:20:49] is, is really the best word for it, but it's almost like emotions in the body. Like I think you have a

[00:20:54] feeling when you're on the right track. And it's not that when I sit down, I'm even envisioning the

[00:21:00] reader on most days, but occasionally like I am aware that if I'm delighting myself with what I'm,

[00:21:07] I'm writing, I'm thinking this is going to delight someone else. And, um, and when that happens,

[00:21:14] it almost always is like the scenes that everyone shares, the little things that everyone pulls out.

[00:21:20] And so I think just becoming more attuned to those things over time in yourself, like your own

[00:21:28] emotions. I mean, I know it's kind of a cliche to say, write the book that you want to read because

[00:21:34] it's like, I want to read a book someone else wrote that I didn't have to do anything to make exist.

[00:21:41] But I do think there's something to write the book you want to write. And like a lot of people,

[00:21:46] I think maybe, I mean, and I'm not to say that every day you sit down, you're going to be like,

[00:21:50] this is great. I certainly just went through like a year long period where life events overwhelmed and

[00:21:57] I couldn't write or read really for the first time in my adult life. And it was terrifying,

[00:22:02] but you know, it came back like those things, they passed. But, um, I do think that coming back after

[00:22:12] a time away, I'm certainly more attuned to like one book I was writing and I had a good chunk of pages

[00:22:20] and they were good pages that I'd showed my editor and been like, this is a romantic comedy.

[00:22:26] And, but this was the version that I wrote like three years ago. And when I, I just kept not wanting

[00:22:32] to not going further, like something was clearly wrong. And I even asked like a couple of people,

[00:22:38] I was like, I'm going to send this to you to read, but then I never did because I would have had to edit it.

[00:22:41] And then all of a sudden I just started like having a conversation with another writer

[00:22:46] and asking questions. And now it is the horror book that I actually described, uh, when I was like,

[00:22:54] well, let's put this second book in. So sometimes your subconscious already told you this wasn't what

[00:22:59] you thought it was originally. And now it's fun. Now it's like fun to get into that world, develop it.

[00:23:06] Sometimes it's trying, it's figuring out like you're stalled because your subconscious knows that

[00:23:11] you are about to make a huge mistake. Gotcha. Okay. So when, when you started publishing,

[00:23:18] was your sense of what it meant to be writing good fiction the same, or has it changed over that time?

[00:23:24] Hmm. I mean, I think at core, it's always just about like trying to tell the story that's in your head.

[00:23:33] I do think that, um, when you are first publishing, not necessarily writing, but when you're first

[00:23:41] publishing, or even when you start showing your work to other people, there's a real curve. There's

[00:23:47] a learning curve that you have to go through to figure out like how vulnerable you are to voices of

[00:23:57] criticism getting in your head. And the first time that you publish something, you know, you're

[00:24:02] going to have, I mean, I mean, my first books were published during the heyday of hate reads on Goodreads.

[00:24:08] And so like the very first review that I ever got from a stranger was like laden with gifts and just

[00:24:17] like dragging the hell out of the book. And it was devastating. And like Kirkus had also panned the book,

[00:24:25] but then a lot of people I respected loved that book. And I'm still proud of it. Um, I'm sure there's a lot

[00:24:32] of things I would do differently about my first book now, but I, I think that you end up learning that like

[00:24:39] your work isn't for everyone and that's okay. Um, and so I think it really is just about sticking to your

[00:24:46] integrity of what you're trying to do. And that, that is, that has remained constant. Like I, you

[00:24:53] know, and I've always wanted my books to be quote unquote fun for the reader. Like I want them to be

[00:25:00] smart and fun and engaging and that has not wavered. And I, and that's something I carry across genres.

[00:25:08] Even for darker books, I still want them to be fun. Like in the sense that you want to pick it up,

[00:25:15] you want to spend time in that world, even if they're bad parts of it. Yeah. Um, so, so we talked

[00:25:23] a little bit at the beginning about working with other writers. Uh, I want to shift gears and talk

[00:25:28] about working with editors. Yeah. You, you have your sense of what it means for a work to be good.

[00:25:34] Um, do you find that that's the sense that editors also have, or are you, do you have to be lucky to

[00:25:40] get the editor whose sensibility matches up with yours or how does that happen? Well, I have been

[00:25:44] pretty, I again, have been lucky. I've worked with some great editors. I've only had a couple of,

[00:25:50] of, of nightmare scenarios. And in those cases, it wasn't so much that the editors were

[00:25:56] bad. It's that they were burned out. So I think that that's a, that's a real, that's a real thing.

[00:26:03] And like, I would never necessarily count it against them. They were going through a dark time.

[00:26:06] Um, working with editors is my favorite part of the process. It always has been. I much prefer

[00:26:12] revision to drafting. I find drafting pretty painful on the whole. And there's nothing like

[00:26:18] the gift of somebody that really learns your book as almost knows it as well as you do.

[00:26:26] And, um, but like I had an editorial call yesterday with my editor, my agent on this historical fantasy

[00:26:32] and the first draft I turned in, I knew needed to be completely ripped apart. Like I figured out

[00:26:37] the world and that was basically it and a couple of the characters. And so we had this call together

[00:26:43] and once they know that you're like, all right, let's go, let's figure out how to fix this. And

[00:26:49] that you're not just going to be weeping and being like, okay, I know this is going to be so much work.

[00:26:54] Like everyone can be more excited about it. And then my other editor, the editor on the frame up,

[00:27:00] uh, is my dream editor who was the only person we showed this book to, uh, and Grohl, who is a legend.

[00:27:06] And I wanted to work with her because I heard an interview with her at world fantasy when she was

[00:27:11] the editor guest of honor during the pandemic. And she just so clearly still loves and is excited

[00:27:17] by books and her job. And she's been doing this for decades. And I just was like, that's,

[00:27:25] that is someone I want to work with. And then through random events, it turned out, oh, it was mutual.

[00:27:31] Um, and, and, and we still had to give and take, but even just her notes on the proposal that I sent in

[00:27:38] that I submitted, I knew like, this is someone who can see what I'm trying to do more clearly than I can.

[00:27:47] And it really was so helpful. Um, and to feel you've got a partner in your editors. And I felt

[00:27:55] that with the Lois Lane editor, my editor for that book wrote this lovely essay you can still find

[00:28:00] on Tumblr. And she had her first daughter right when the book was coming out. And I really feel like

[00:28:07] editors don't get enough credit. Now I have heard horror stories. I've had friends who've gone through

[00:28:12] some terrible things. And I would say sometimes I feel like we're too afraid to just jump on the phone

[00:28:20] and have a conversation and be like, your suggestion here doesn't work for me. Let's figure out what

[00:28:25] will. Great. Yeah. Thank you. Um, I think we're almost at time. Was there anything that you would

[00:28:32] like to talk about that we didn't get to? Just the sense of that, you know, like the 10,000 hours

[00:28:38] concept, I think you're never not learning. I mean, I've said this many times jokingly, but it's true.

[00:28:45] The last 20% of every book that I write, I buy a book on how to write a book in a panic.

[00:28:50] It's so true. And then I will read it and I'll be like, I think I might be doing this. I think I may

[00:28:56] have almost written a book and it's very comforting, but you're never going to feel like an expert no matter

[00:29:03] how many times you've done this, but you do sort of get secure in your process. And also I think the

[00:29:09] biggest piece of advice that I always give people and I think it is figuring out the parts of your

[00:29:14] process that exist, even the ones that make you mad and you wish didn't and being honest about them.

[00:29:20] And if you are producing the work, then your process works for you. Stop trying to fight it.

[00:29:27] You know what I mean? Just embrace it. Learn to learn to love, hate your process.

[00:29:32] Yeah. If you're not writing, obviously you got to fix that or figure out like, am I burned out? Do

[00:29:38] I need time off? Have I taken a wrong turn or whatever? But, but I think like we're sadly,

[00:29:44] there are no 10,000 hours. It's just continuing education hours for the rest of your life.

[00:29:49] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things I've discovered as I've talked to people across

[00:29:54] domains and at different stages is that you never stop like refining what expertise means.

[00:30:01] Right. So as a starting writer, maybe you are very focused on like story structure and what the,

[00:30:06] even the possibilities are for a point of view or whatever it happens to be like, they're very like

[00:30:11] technical level details. And then you sort of, you get those and you can move on to bigger and bigger

[00:30:16] and, and thinking much more about the audience who you want to connect with or the themes that you

[00:30:21] want to explore or whatever it happens to be. And that's the thing that keeps growing and evolving

[00:30:28] over time. So yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And just always learning like new, I mean, I always want

[00:30:35] to be like doing new stuff, learning to tell stories in new ways. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that,

[00:30:41] that exploring different media and, and as much as maybe the rollout was botched on dead air,

[00:30:47] right. Interactions between in universe podcasts and the actual story that you're telling or some of

[00:30:54] the stuff that Andrea has done with transmedia and, and telling a single story across a bunch of

[00:30:59] different channels. Yes. Yeah. It's, I think the potential is sort of unlimited. It is. It's so

[00:31:05] exciting. No, I'm one of my oldest friends, Sean Stewart, whose novels I love, but who also has

[00:31:11] done a lot of the alternate reality gaming stuff. And I love listening to him talk and Andrea talk

[00:31:16] about stories because they just think of them in a totally different way. Yeah. Great. Well,

[00:31:22] thank you. This has been a fantastic discussion. I appreciate your time. Oh, thank you. Thank you.

[00:31:26] This was super fun. Thanks for listening. And thank you again to Gwenda Bond. That's a wrap for the

[00:31:31] fiction series, but there's more 10,000 to come. Join us again next week for another interview.